[This story contains MAJOR spoilers from Vol. 2 of Stranger Things 5: “Shock Jock,” “Escape From Camazotz” and “The Bridge.”]
Matt and Ross Duffer have always known the final scene of Stranger Things. But the winding, upside-down road to getting there hasn’t always been as set in stone.
After years of working on the final season, that is Stranger Things 5, the writers/directors/showrunners of Netflix‘s megahit series are finally sharing with the world how they’ve set up the series endgame, with the supersized three episodes of Vol. 2 now released and delivering some major payoffs in Hawkins lore.
Following the return of Eleven’s (Millie Bobby Brown) “sister” Kali (Linnea Berthelsen), the Vol. 2 episodes revealed that the Upside Down is actually a wormhole connecting the real world to Vecna’s Abyss, which, if exploded, will cause it to collapse. Dr. Kay (Linda Hamilton) has taken up Dr. Brenner’s (Matthew Modine) work and is testing Kali’s blood on pregnant women. Meanwhile, the abduction of Will (Noah Schnapp), which kick-started the series, circles back in a major reveal that he has powers similar to those held by Vecna (Jamie Campbell Bower). And Max (Sadie Sink) has finally escaped Vecna’s clutches and woken up in the real world, only to have left Holly (Nell Fisher) behind with a roadmap as to how to plot her own escape.
The third episode of Vol. 2, “The Bridge,” ends with a scene where Will comes out as gay to his family and friends, and then decides that he will reenter the Upside Down with Eleven to carry out their plan to collapse the wormhole. The Duffers said they spent the longest amount of time of the series writing that pivotal scene, which they also co-directed (they shared duties with executive producer Shawn Levy on the 66-minute episode).
“We just wanted to get it right,” says Ross Duffer. Matt Duffer adds, “We worked on that for a while with just Joyce [Winona Ryder], and it never felt right. Once we involved the friends, it started to click more into place. I remember … being nervous when we showed it to Noah. Because so much of it is close to what he’s been through. It had to be truthful for him on two fronts.”
Below, the Duffer Brothers dive into Vol. 2 with The Hollywood Reporter, revealing how they plotted the second part’s biggest moments, including when they let Sink in on her fate and how they handled the pressure around Will’s coming out scene (“We sobbed in the close-up,” says Ross). They also reveal the steps they took to keep the series finale secret before it releases on Netflix and in theaters on New Year’s Eve, where the Stranger Things franchise goes next, and why the series finale shouldn’t be compared to Game of Thrones.
“There’s not going to be a Red Wedding situation,” says Matt Duffer. “We’re not trying to shock or upset anyone. I hope by the time people get to the end of the finale that it just feels like there’s something inevitable about what happens.”
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Shows have gone to insane lengths to keep endings a secret. I want to know what you guys did for the Stranger Things series finale.
MATT DUFFER: To keep it secret? Well, we didn’t shoot multiple endings. I don’t know how anyone has the time to do something like that just to trick people. But we had a really good security team, and they did their best to keep the paparazzi away. The finale script was printed on red paper, but just the finale, because it’s annoying to get red scripts.
ROSS DUFFER: It’s hard to read.
MATT DUFFER: And then we just really limited the distribution, all of which makes it more difficult in some ways, but we just had to take extra precautions.
ROSS DUFFER: What we really wanted to protect was the finale. I’m impressed with our team for protecting the Kali reveal because Linnea [Berthelsen] was on set with us for months. So that was impressive.
MATT DUFFER: We were trying to protect Matthew Modine all the way back in season four, and then he drove up on the first day in a convertible and got snapped [by paparazzi]. Like within 48 hours, he blew the secret. So I told Linnea: “No convertibles.” (Laughs.)
I spoke with Jamie Campbell Bower and I know he was on-boarded with a lot of information when he joined the show last season, and that this season he, like everyone else, was kept more in the dark and received the scripts episode to episode. He said he was texting you guys novels of questions.
MATT DUFFER: Yes. And a lot of that is because we were still writing it, especially the finale. It took a long time to write that script. And on top of that, we were directing, so everyone got it that much later in the production.
There are major payoffs in these Vol. 2 episodes. Top of mind is of course Max waking up. Has Sadie Sink been wondering since season four if she was going to wake up, or did you guys clue her in earlier?
ROSS DUFFER: We told her that obviously, she was going to be part of season five. We told her before we gave her the finale script for season four, because we were like, “She’s going to read this and think she’s off the show and be upset.” So we gave her the heads up, but I don’t think we explained exactly how.
MATT DUFFER: We gave her a hint. At that point, I don’t think Holly [Nell Fisher] was a really big part of the season. We knew [Max] was going to be trapped in Vecna’s mind, but her story really evolved a lot as we worked on it with the writers.
I wanted to ask about how expanding Holly came about and what it was like casting Nell Fisher. She is such a big part of this final season, and in Vol. 2, it really is a passing of the torch moment from Max to Holly, where we as viewers are now desperately rooting for Holly’s survival.
MATT DUFFER: Exactly. She reminds me a lot of Sadie. For her age, she’s insanely intelligent and precocious and on top of it. Nobody’s on their mark but Nell, and all of those things were true of Sadie when she was a kid. So it was cool to see them work together and to see Nell have someone to look up to like Sadie and learn from her. That was one of the most fun parts of the season.
You had seen Nell acting in something else, and you immediately wanted her for the role of Holly?
MATT DUFFER: I saw her in just the trailer for Evil Dead Rise. She looked like our Holly. She was younger, but I remember showing the trailer to Ross and going, “Could Nell be Holly?” And then she was in the group of kids with [casting director] Carmen Cuba.
ROSS DUFFER: Right, I forgot about it actually. We didn’t bring it up with Carmen, and then Nell was in the group and she just blew us away. It was instantly clear. And then Matt had a brag that he had spotted this early.
MATT DUFFER: It made no difference!
ROSS DUFFER: We would have found her. But take credit if you want. (Laughs.)
I also spoke with Noah Schnapp, and he said that he read up to episode six, and he was thinking, “Okay, so Will’s coming out scene isn’t here yet, it must be in seven or the finale…” So you guys didn’t give him much of a heads-up about when that was coming?
ROSS DUFFER: If he says so, I don’t remember! We weren’t purposely withholding from him. That was probably the longest we ever spent on a scene ever in Stranger Things. We just wanted to get it right. Seven itself didn’t take extraordinarily long to write but that scene did, because we felt a responsibility to Will and to Noah, too; we wanted to be as truthful as it could be.
I’m sure he told you, but he said it was perfect. What was that process like of writing it?
MATT DUFFER: I just know it took forever. Originally, it was just going to be him coming out his mom, and then we felt it needed to be more than that and that it needed to involve his friends. We worked on that for a while with just Joyce [Winona Ryder], and it just never felt right. So, once we involved the friends, it started to click a little bit more into place. I don’t recall exactly how long it took. I just remember it taking quite a long time, and then being nervous when we showed it to Noah. Because so much of it is close to what he’s been through, but, also he knows Will so well. So it had to be truthful for him on two fronts. And so the fact that it resonated with him was great, and then we felt so much relief, and the pressure kind of went onto Noah.
He does put a lot of pressure on himself. But he did have the script several months in advance, and he spent a lot of time by himself working and prepping the scene. Most of what you see in the show is the first close-up shot that we did. We actually did hardly any directing. The main direction was a question, which was, “What do you want to shoot first? Do you want us to start with the reaction shots and build up to you, or do you want to go first?” He said, “Let’s just do the wide [shot]; let me warm up and then I just want to get it over with. I want to do the close-up.” So we did the wide, he warmed up, we did the close-up. Most of it is from take one. He just killed it. Killed it. And he felt such immense relief, I think, when he did.
ROSS DUFFER: And then we’re like, “We have 20 more reaction shots to get. Sorry, you gotta keep going!” (Laughs.)
MATT DUFFER: And Noah can’t not go 100 percent, even when he’s off camera, which is wonderful for the other actors. But by the end of the day, he looked like he was gonna collapse.
Did you guys cry when you were directing that?
ROSS DUFFER: We sobbed in the close up.
MATT DUFFER: But also, you’re so nervous about the technical aspects — just praying it doesn’t go out of focus. So often, and sometimes I have to explain this to the actors, something technically goes wrong like the dolly’s off or the focus is out and it’s so frustrating. So when you’re having a moment like that that’s so magical, part of your brain is just praying nothing goes wrong in the technical instant that you capture it.
ROSS DUFFER: It’s rare, but sometimes there are moments where you’re like, “We just won’t capture that again.”
MATT DUFFER: It’s come and gone. Some things aren’t repeatable. And he gave so many good reads that day, but none that were on that level of that first read. He just tapped into something so real. It just felt real and completely vulnerable.
The scene runs parallel to Will’s self-actualization this season. I know you have always known your final scene of the series, and the North Star you were working towards. But did you always know how Will’s abduction from the start would play out in the end, and how pivotal he would be?
ROSS DUFFER: We’ve always known that Will was going to be key. And obviously, we’ve kept this connection to the Upside Down going, even at the end of season two when they got the Mind Flayer out of him. But it was one of the first ideas, probably the first idea we had as we sat down to break season five — that the story began with Will’s kidnapping, and so it felt right to end with the need to center a lot of the season around Will one more time as we come to a conclusion.
There’s been a lot of speculation about that line you included in the trailer from Steve (Joe Keery) to Dustin (Gaten Matarazzo), about being ready to die.
ROSS DUFFER: People are always worried about Steve.
MATT DUFFER: It doesn’t matter. We could have put nothing in the trailer and people would still be freaked out about Steve.
But between that line and the plot with Hopper (David Harbour) also being ready to die to save Eleven, you have been foreshadowing more than one character being ready to die for the larger cause. How worried should we be about their survival?
MATT DUFFER: It’s not Game of Thrones. We’re not in Westeros. I love Game of Thrones, but it’s just a very different type of show than that. There’s not going to be a Red Wedding situation. I think some things happen in the finale that are very surprising, but we’re not trying to shock or upset anyone. I hope by the time people get to the end of the finale that it just feels like there’s something inevitable about what happens, and that it doesn’t feel painful but feels satisfying. We’ll see. But as for Steve’s fate. I don’t know. I can’t say. It would be the next logical step. He keeps getting beaten up more and more. The only way we could take it further is death. (Laughs.)
We’re worried about so many people that we almost forget Eleven is our main worry. This season brought her and Hopper back together again in a touching way. Why did you want to bring them full circle before we find out what’s going to happen to her in the end?
MATT DUFFER: Part of it is that we’re always looking for interesting dynamics or character dynamics that we either haven’t yet explored or are looking for new ways to explore, and those two actors in particular are so incredible, and we hadn’t really exploited that dynamic since season two, and we wanted to reexamine that. It is a coming-of-age story, and this final chapter is about them transitioning to adulthood, and part of transitioning into adulthood is breaking from your parents. Hopper has such a strong grip on her because of his tragic past. We wanted to dive into that, and that conflict, and that certainly continues all the way through the finale.
So, do you guys feel like you stuck the landing?
MATT DUFFER: No one has put it that bluntly! (Laughs.)
ROSS DUFFER: We feel really happy with how the show ended up. I think in the finale, in particular, the last scene, which again, we’ve had an idea of what that scene was going to be like for years, and when we sat down to break season five, it’s the first thing we broke. Everything is really building to that moment and making sure that works. Because we knew that no matter what we did, we could do eight hours of entertainment that people love, and then if you slip in the last five minutes, it’s all anyone’s going to talk about! So you just want to make sure you get those five minutes right, and then hopefully everything falls into place. We’re so proud of that scene and the performances from our cast in that scene, so we’re feeling good about it. But it’s always nerve-racking to put it out there for the audience.
MATT DUFFER: It’s challenging, especially because of the demographics, in terms of who’s watching this show. It’s really broad. When you read about people reacting to the show, sometimes I feel like they’re watching very different shows. And in a way, they are, right? They’re fixated on different aspects of the show that are more important to some people than others. It just gets confusing. So you can’t really work towards satisfying [everyone], because who are you choosing to satisfy?
At the end of the day, you do kind of have to shut out all the noise and just listen to your gut and the other writers with whom we’ve been working with for so long, and hope that what we feel is right resonates with everybody else. The only thing that gives me some more confidence is the fact that the actors are as happy as they are, because they are so connected to those characters. That was honestly the most nerve-racking thing. I think what made me more nervous than the upcoming New Year’s Eve screening [of the series finale]was reading it with the actors for the first time.
Well, you guys are not ending this franchise. You have [the upcoming animated series] Stranger Things: Tales from ’85. Is there anything else you can say?
ROSS DUFFER: We’re very early days on a live-action spinoff. But this is the end of the story for these characters of Hawkins, for the Upside Down. It’s a different decade and different characters, but of course, still connected to the Stranger Things universe. It’s an idea we’ve had for years and something we’re just really excited and passionate about. We won’t be showrunning that show, but we’ll be heavily involved. So, as the new year comes around, we’re going to start spending more time on that. Hopefully it’s something announced soon-ish.
Do you think that will be coming before you start making movies for Paramount [with their new deal]?
MATT DUFFER: I think conceivably it could.
ROSS DUFFER: We’re definitely further along with that idea than a movie idea!
MATT DUFFER: The Paramount deal hasn’t kicked in, and we’ve just been so focused on Stranger Things, and we’re still focused on the Stranger Things spinoff. But it has been so fun to work on, frankly, because even though it is Stranger Things, it’s really more of the style of storytelling. It’s very fun to start to develop a new mythology and new characters. It’s been a blast.
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Volumes 1 and 2 of Stranger Things 5 are now streaming on Netflix — the series finale releases on Netflix and in 500 theaters across the country on Dec. 31 at 5 p.m. PT./ 8 p.m. ET.
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